This post
was written as a reply to an atheist that wanted me to prove that Jesus was a
historical figure. I wanted to share it with you all.
I’ve finished reading Jim Walker’s paper, “Did the Historical Jesus Exist?”
from nobeliefs.com/exist.htm. I looked up the references and persons quoted. I
reviewed the paper in full. At first I thought you wrote the paper, and then it
occurred to me that you did not. Which was not your fault, you never said you
did. Just that you believed it. So it is sort of “You’re Bible”. Nowhere did
Mr. Walker prove that Jesus never existed. You believe in hear-say evidence.
Just as I do. The matter is ‘belief’. If I had realized that you were going by
this hear-say, I would never had entered into this conversation with you and
wasted so much time. The paper seems to be full of speculations. Like the
persons could not have written the Gospels because the life span was only 30
years. If this was true then the Gospels would not have been accepted because
of the stories of John the Baptist’s birth to an old couple. People took notice
because she was past the age of giving birth not because she and Zeb were
beyond the expected life span of a normal person. The story of Simeon the old
man in the temple who was waiting for the birth of Christ is indeed possible.
And Jesus telling Peter he would live to be an old man with John. How is that
for speculation? The only truth between Walker’s and my argument is that the
first century people believed them and most chose death instead of denial. And
they believed when the truth of Jesus was well past the time of physical proof.
You wanted me to quote proof of His life. Here it is. I submit the names of the
pagan and Christian historians listed as proof. It does not matter that they
were later in history. I believe they are right and you believe they were
wrong. The pagan historians had nothing to gain by speaking of Jesus. Pliny,
Suetonius, Cornelius Tacitus (55 AD - 120AD Over 30 years old), Lucian of
Samosata, Thallus, Phlegon, Mara Bar-Serapion and the Christian historians like
Polycarp who was under the study of the Apostle Matthew. He later was
instrumental in pointing out to other church leaders which text was of the
disciples along with other leaders who sat under the teachings of other
disciples. They in turn gave their lives instead of denying the truth just as
their teachers. Knowledge, he gleaned from an eyewitness. You discount
historians because they are not eyewitnesses of the events they report. Should
we discount all of our other history books or believe the research the
historians did. And if one historian was forced to choose death or deny what he
has reported and he chose death. Wouldn’t you lean more in the direction of
believing him? We should let the jury decide. The jury is in. More people that
were aware of Him, even opposite religions and other atheists, believe He
existed. Historians as a whole believe He existed.
And speaking of “Fakes, Frauds, and Fictions” Should I go into the Piltdown man
and Nebraska Man being faked and one made up from the tooth of a pig. Come on
guys.
You and Mr. Walker seem to lack enough knowledge of ancient customs of the time
of the Bible or church history to interpret the Bible or Church historical
events.
You all seem to push proof. Well, I agree that you cannot prove with archaeology.
Although the oldest fragment of the book of Matthew was reported by the “The
Times” of London in 1994 to have been found and proven to be written by a
contemporary of Jesus. It was dated about 60 A.D. written in the Greek language
of that day. Of course it cannot be proven that it is written by the Matthew,
but it was written or copied by someone who could have known Jesus. Will we
know for sure? No. Will you know for sure that he didn’t? No. So where does
that leave us, by my faith that He did or your faith that He didn’t. It is—all
faith.
Jesus left His disciples with an expectation that He would return to earth
again. Therefore none of them felt a need to record on paper the events until
later. We have history books dating, 100 and even 200 years old by people who
did not experience what they wrote about but reported what others told them.
Sort of what newspaper reporters do. We must choose to believe or not believe
the reporter. If a person witnesses an event and waits 30 to 50 years to report
it and then give his life before denying it, does that make his witness
invalid? Like the fact that a person existed in history. I don’t think so.
I think your problem is how you perceive God or the lack of God.
Say you try to “will” yourself to believe just for a moment that God existed.
You may see Him as an old man who creates a world and winds it up to let it run
down and creates people with no purpose than to serve as a whipping post when
they do badly. OR can you see a God that created a world for people that He
loves. Saw how their sin was killing them, came down to live as a man and
experience the pain of man, to offer Himself as a sacrifice for man to heal the
gap in relationship between them. He had a free will also. He could have chosen
not to die on the cross. He asked the Father if there was another way to fulfill
the promise, but if not He would choose the Father’s will instead of His own. This
is hard to understand by people who do not have Spiritual insight and
revelation from God on how God can be a Father, Son and Spirit at the same time.
My point is that God is big enough to make sure the events of His life on earth
could make it through time and in one piece. If He could not, then He wasn’t
much of a God. I’m sure you will comment on this remark.
The church started small, governed by men locally in small groups. Jesus never
intended for it to become some giant organization under the authority of one
man that had the power over men’s life or death. Peter was not the first Pope.
He had disagreements with Paul and it did not cost Paul his life. It was not
until Constantine converted that this misguided church came into power. Jesus
never said that a person could make a pilgrimage to Jerusalem for forgiveness
of sins, which lead to the Crusades. That was never part of God’s plan. He
ordained no other works that a person could do to gain forgiveness of sins. All
He asked was faith in Him.
Faith, which brings me back to the proof you wished to have. One of the main
themes of the Bible is that God will only take faith in Him. Not in the works
of men, not in man’s power and not in any evidence of archaeology. He will not
allow it. It is faith or nothing.
Also the way you are trying to find proof is wrong. The Bible states, “That God
is spirit and those who worship Him must do so in Spirit and in Truth.” God is
not made of physical matter and any amateur scientist knows you cannot measure
anything that is not matter. Can you prove emotions? Can you prove thought?
Since you cannot physically prove these in science does that mean you have no
feelings or you do not think?
Of course not, I can read the emotion when you write. And I can tell you think.
Can you prove there is wind? You cannot measure it, taste it etc….. You believe
in these three because you see the results of them. Also I believe in God/Jesus
because I see the results of His work.
He created an atom that is held together by a force that science cannot
explain. It is there. Look what happens when you split one. You can win a
lottery every year for the rest of your life before an atom puts it’s self
together and forms a living organism. Science and engineering says a bumble bee
should not be able to fly. But it does.
The greatest evidence of Jesus’ existence is the tidal wave of change that occurred
from His life. If He did not exist, who made up His name? Who persuaded people
to give their lives as a testimony to His life? Where in history did anyone
else have this influence? You speak of other gods and their similarities to
Jesus. Who today believes in the Greek gods? God is so big that He could easily
insert into other cultures, like the cannibals of New Guina, things that could
be used by missionaries to teach about the true God when Jesus chose to reveal
Himself to them. As written about in the book,” Eternity in Their Hearts”.
There is a saying, “You can tell a tree by the fruit it bears”. Through the
influence of Jesus, all individuals received equal worth. Before Christ,
children were deemed worthless until a certain age. It was a common practice to
throw babies into the river or leave them for the beast in the woods if a child
was not wanted. Not until Constantine did this change. Through the years many
graves are filled by the killing of people deemed worthless or less evolved by
atheist governments. Planned Parenthood was formed to do away with the black
race through abortion. If you do not believe this read the journal of the
founder.
Also before Christ the poor were discarded to the wayside to die on their own.
Through the influence of Christ, people following His ideas reached out to the
poor and lifted them up with dignity. Not in any natural or man-made disaster
have I seen the “Atheist Relief Society” rise up to take care of the needy. If
there is such an organization I do not know of, please enlighten me if there is
such a thing. Also, During the U.S. depression, atheists and evolutionists
believed poverty came through heredity, and had poor children, orphans and
others put into institutions and forcibly sterilized. This turned out to be
wrong and became part of the hidden history of America.
The one good thing that came from the dark ages is that the Bible was preserved
for over a thousand years without being altered. When God chose to reveal
Himself and the Bible became public, education became important to many. The
influence of Christ brought about the rise of colleges and institutions of
learning. You seem to enjoy bringing up the “flat earth” teaching and assigning
it to only Christians. You must not know that everyone at that time believed in
the theory and it was popular all over the world, except where they believed
the earth sat on a giant turtles back and other beliefs. The Bible was tucked
away from common people and left them to ignorance by the leadership of the
perverted church at the time. Otherwise they would have read in Isa. 40:22,
“God sits on His throne above the circle or sphere of the earth….” written 2500
years before the discovery of secular philosophers and believed. You seem to
use this in the hope that we Christians look stupid and unlearned. How silly is
it that the early evolutionist believed maggots on rotten meat proved
“spontaneous generation”. We accepted the round earth when proven, but you all
seem to stick to the SG myth although you have not been able to produce it in a
lab for over a hundred years now. It is interesting that most of your major
colleges in the world were started by Christians trying to improve the
education of others. Then the atheists took them over and our U.S. education
system is going down the tubes, while Christian home schoolers and students of Christian
schools continue to score higher on SATs. More times than their secular counter
parts. This is provable with just a little research.
So through history we have seen the fruits of the influence of Christ and the influence
of atheism and those using religion for the gaining of power.
This Christian believes that no matter what proof we come up with, you all will
not believe. But don’t trust me. Open your heart to believe for just a little
bit to do a real search if Jesus is real. I agree with what Physicist Robert
Morris Page says,” The test of a hypothesis involves the establishment of
conditions consistent with the hypothesis to produce results predicted by the
hypothesis on the assumption that the hypothesis is true.” In short you must
believe in the hypothesis you are testing if only for the sake of the test to
have a true answer to the hypothesis. You are like the black smith that did not
believe that a ship made of iron would float. Surly, if iron would not float
neither would a ship covered with it he argued. And to prove it he tossed a
horseshoe into a barrow of water in front of the town folk and it sunk. Seeing
the proof of brilliance he grinned pointing to the truth of his hypothesis. A
little old lady tried to question his finding and was scorned as an ignorant
old lady that does not have the ability to think of such things. She left them
but returned with her iron kettle. Tossing it in, it floated. She believed the
hypothesis therefore truth was seen.
We have seen what atheism will bring about in the world and we are aware that
if they come to power in our county we may be looking at near elimination of
Christians and others who do not believe as they do, the under evolved. It
happened in other countries, why not the U.S. Although after the fall of
Russia’s government there appeared a church that could not be crushed. In
China, the Christian church is growing stronger than ever. Africa’s Christians
although suffering murder, torture and bondage to slavery have hung to their
faith. There must be more to Jesus than physical matter that can be tested in a
test tube or found written on a rock.
If atheists come to power and the time comes for me to choose Christ or die you
may use this at my trial:
·
I am John Dewayne, aka Wayne Brooks, son of
Frank Brooks from Dothan, Al. USA.
·
I believe in Christ the Savior of Mankind and
God.
·
I believe He came to earth to live among us and
to give His life to redeem us from our sins and save us from the penalty of it.
·
I believe He rose from the dead on the third day
after His crucifixion and ascended into Heaven where He waits for the time when
He will return to defeat the Antichrist and bring all believers to Himself.
Leaving all non-believers to spend eternity without the presence of God.
·
I believe the book known as the Holy Bible to be
the record of all the needed information to believe in Christ and comes from
God.
With this confession I swear to live and not deny.
Your 7 day challenge http://www.myspace.com/7_day_atheist_challenge and
statements of Jesus not existing seems to me just an attempt to gather data for
your book and a chance to impress your Jesus Seminar buddies. The shameful
thing is that Christians are not answering your challenge because they are not afraid
or they have no proof. It is because most of them do not care if you believe or
not. Well my whole motivation for getting involved with you is to just share
the love of Christ with you this last time. It hurts me to think of you
spending eternity alone without God with the arguments in your book going
through your head over and over again thinking you are right. I know you’ve
heard this all before. But I wanted you to hear it from me. I respect your
choice and please forgive me if I have offended you in anyway. I do get to be a
real smartass sometimes. Thanks for the education you’ve provided me. You’ve
strengthened my faith in ways your will never know.
The good news for us is that in the end we both will get what we want, I will
get eternity with Christ and you will get eternity without Christ. We both win?
I end with this and bid you fair well.
Notice: If any of this is used in any book out of context and without
permission, I will sue you and use all the money to print Bibles for
missionaries overseas. If you wish to reprint any of it for your blog, just ask
and let me know which part. As long as you print it all in context, no problem.
(c) Wayne Brooks 2007
Posted: Sunday, October 21, 2007
